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PostSubject: Scaling stuff   Sat Apr 05, 2014 2:05 pm

To discern the size of Las Noches there are several pieces of information that need to be taken into account here. This information can also give us some scale of power because of what Ulquiorra was able to do in Segunda Etapa to the roof of the castle, namely blow away half of it.

Some people say it is the relative size of a small country like Portugal because Nel once said it would take 3 days to get to one wall from their standing point which was rather central. To make it short, I read an estimated calculation which gave a rough size of about 82 million square kilometers. That is simply ridiculous because Las Noches is just not that big.

Another source is Ichi and friends when arriving in Hueco Mundo. They state that Las Noches is slightly bigger than the Seireitei. Using that information, we can say that Las Noches must be the size of a big city, since the Seireitei from bird perspective usually looks like the size of a general, urban city.

Now, a relatively neat calculation I found which was based on the drawings of Kubo and the scale he used gave a more accurate depiction of what Las Noches' size is. I will use images that were created by "Murazor" of "forums.spacebattles.com" regarding a discussion that took a turn and talked about the size of Las Noches.

First image:
 

The image above shows Rudobon in front of one of the pillars on the very top of Las Noches. Let's say the dude is average in size, he'll have around 1.8 meters to him. The pillar in the back is shown to be around 10 times the size of him in width. So we can roughly state that those pillars are 18 meters in diameter wide.

Next image:
 

That image shows a good side view of Las Noches. As the scales show, the pillars width is about 5 pixels in that image. So 18 meters take up 5 pixels there. The height is around 155 pixels. So 18 x (155/5) = 540. All of that in meters would mean that Las Noches' height is around 540 meters. Half a kilometer. That would be relatively feasible. Now, the length of Las Noches takes up 655 pixels. So the calculation is 18 x (655/5) = 2358. All of that in meters would mean Las Noches' length is about 2.36 kilometers.

Final image:
 

Now, the last and final image of Las Noches here suggest that the main building we've just assessed is a relative square. That would mean that the area of Las Noches' main building is around 2.36 square kilometers. For scale, google Mexico City. It's about 1.5 square kilometers. Las Noches' main building is immense with even only that. The Seireitei is probably a bit smaller than the main building, meaning 2 square kilometers. An additional calculation is the volume of the main building. To make it short, it's around 3 billion cubic meters.

That would still be extremely large. But since Las Noches has additional towers and buildings in its "front yard" so to speak, we can assume that the general property of the building itself encompasses 5 square kilometers. The towers up front being around twice as high as Las Noches itself, so a kilometer in length. To give scale, the empire state building is about 400 meters tall. The Burj Khalifa is around 830 meters tall. Just so you guys have an image of what Las Noches and the Seireitei is about.
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PostSubject: Re: Scaling stuff   Sat Apr 05, 2014 3:45 pm

As I mentioned before, you can roughly assess the power of some abilities based off of the size of Las Noches. Namely the power of Cero Oscuras in a Ressureccion. The image I gave from the side view of the main building of Las Noches shows how part of the roof is smoking. That is because prior to that scene, Ulquiorra fired a Cero Oscuras in his released state. It tore through half of the roof. Meaning its length was roughly around 260 meters, according to my scale calculation. The fact that it literally mauled through the solid roof of several meters thickness and who-knows-what density (mustah been something Reiatsu support and preeeeetty dense for it to be stable) means that its width and Reiatsu Strength must have been very high. That can give image that most characters without stable defense would likely carry away HEAVY damage if hit by a Cero Oscuras, including the fact that it without hindrance and the part of the Cero that likely blew past the building's roof it could fly around 300 to 400 meters before dissipating.

Now to assessing some speed. I will try and discern Ulquiorra's "running" or general "moving speed". As soon as Ichi went into Masked Mode, he blasted Ulquiorra out of the tower they were in. Ulquiorra fell and fired a Cero at Ichigo who was rushing after him. Ichigo came out unscathed, to which Ulquiorra decided to use his Ressureccion. But since he wasn't allowed to under the dome of Las Noches, he flew outside of it, creating a small hole above the ground. I estimate he started moving upwards about 40 meters above the ground, meaning he covered 500 meters as he went upwards. In the anime, it takes about 20 seconds of moving for Ulquiorra to get from slightly above the ground all the way to the top of Las Noches. Anyone who's interested in my calculation, ask. But it tells us that he was around 90 kmh fast WITHOUT using Sonido. Since Ulquiorra was an insanely strong character who seemed to have an inherent mastery over several things, we can assume for one, that he would have Mastered his speed, and as a second that characters at Captain Class with a mastered speed can move about 90 kmh, perhaps 100 kmh in general without the use of Sonido. Some faster, some slower. That is PRETTY fast in case you're wondering. That means covering 25 meters of distance in a second. Without the use of HSM. Opinions?

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PostSubject: Re: Scaling stuff   Sat Apr 05, 2014 4:24 pm

You an OBD'er or were you just somehow influenced by all of this and either have or have no idea what I'm talking about?

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PostSubject: Re: Scaling stuff   Sat Apr 05, 2014 4:34 pm

Now to assess some speed of HSM. This is a tough one. Especially because we never get exact distance for the coverage of any of the HSM's, and Kubo always draws them as if they were vanishing and reappearing. The difference though is that Bleach characters can perceive the speed of HSM. As with Ichigo who commented that he was able to visualize every one of Byakuya's steps. Now, I will use something VERY vague here, but please please please... bare with me.

I will try to assess the speed of SONIDO here, and I will use Zommari's Gemelos Sonido at this point. Now, let us just ASSUME that the creation of speed clones is technique based. Let us ASSUME, that he is moving at Sonido speed to create these clones, but is just using foot technique to create these speed clones. I have done so and tried to grasp a calculation someone has made about the speed of Zommari's Sonido.

http://www.mangareader.net/94-753-12/bleach/chapter-299.html

Here we see him using Sonido to create a "pseudo-self" standing roughly 1.5 meters apart. Taking the frame-rate for the human eye to see motion into account, which is about one 25th of a second, would mean that Zommari has to cycle through his clones 25 times per second. I am using the theory of circular motion because that would make his "adding another step" comment the most sensible. He would use an additional step to create a circular, or perhaps squared motion to cycle through his clones.

http://www.mangareader.net/94-753-15/bleach/chapter-299.html

Here he is standing around Byakuya with 3 clones. Let's say the distance from Byakuya is about 2 meters. The circumference of a circle is the diameter pi'd. Which means 4xpi which is about 12.56 meters. Traveling 12.56 meters 25 times per second would mean moving at about 314 mps. Now, taking into account the maximum distance at which he could do this and the fact that the images are flickering AND that he can potentially stay in some positions for a millisecond longer to throw the opponent off, I'd say Sonido is well in the range of supersonic movement. Now, how well Byakuya can discern these "pseudo-selves" is unknown. I'm just going from what Kubo is showing us, humans.

Now to the question, which HSM is the fastest. Let's look at the names to get an interpretation of this stuff. Shunpo is Flash Step. Sonido is Echoing Movement. Hirenkyaku roughly as Flying Screen Step (is that right? It sounds right). There is a GREAT difference between Hirenkyaku and Sonido that HAS to be made to form an opinion. Hirenkyaku is not charged through physical movement like the others seem to be. Hirenkyaku are Quincy forming extremely thin plates of Reishi through absorption under their feet and moving these plates to move themselves. Meaning they don't move their legs to perform Hirenkyaku. They rely solely on their Reishi related abilities. This is extremely important because Flash Step is as visualized caused by physical stepping.

Now, I am going to say that Hirenkyaku is the fastest because of this. Quincies have shown their mastery over Reishi by now. And this Mastery over Reishi is what moves them in the first place. So basically, their HSM is JUST Mastery over a specific technique of Reishi. This puts it into an extremely small corner in light of the Quincies variety of abilities.

Sonido and Shunpo seem to be on rather equal terms as they both seem to be related to physical movement. I for one, believe Sonido to be a single step because of Zommari's comment on his Gemelos Sonido. He stated "by adding another small step" in the translation, which CAN imply (doesn't have to) that Sonido is related to a single step that accelerates the Arrancar (haven't seen Hollows do this at all) at an extremely fast rate. Now, Shunpo on the other hand seems to be related to several small steps. Because of the brushing sound, I assume that Shunpo's acceleration is slower than Sonido's but way more perpetual. Sonido seems to be what it is because it breaks the sound barrier, while Shunpo is related to the continuous upkeep of a certain, very quick velocity that might also happen at the speed of sound but doesn't get fast it as quickly as Sonido does. They are on equal terms because basically, for longer distances Shunpo would cover it faster because of my assumed constant velocity, while Sonido seems to be better at short distances since that one step creates an extreme acceleration that "booms" the Arrancar quickly. It loses velocity as it only accelerates ONCE however.

Just my guesses on some stuff. Dunno if anyone will even bother to read these xD But I'd like to hear other opinions on the stuff ^^

EDIT: @Shikyo I dunno what an ODB'er is o.o Please explain xD

EDIT 2: In case anyone's wondering. A large part of the calculations are NOT from me. They appear on several forums. I'm just carrying them over and combining them to see what you guys may think and to perhaps create a bigger image than just one theory can provide ^^
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PostSubject: Re: Scaling stuff   Sat Apr 05, 2014 4:54 pm

Quote :
Some people say it is the relative size of a small country like Portugal because Nel once said it would take 3 days to get to one wall from their standing point which was rather central. To make it short, I read an estimated calculation which gave a rough size of about 82 million square kilometers. That is simply ridiculous because Las Noches is just not that big.
Yeah, people say that a lot, hence why small country level Lanzas are typically thrown around. Overall, using the 3-day statement would give us varying numbers, thus skewing the calc in the first place since using the 'average human walking speed" is a little iffy from the first place.

Quote :
They state that Las Noches is slightly bigger than the Seireitei
Scan of the "slightly" translation? Sometimes there can be discrepancies between Binktopia, Maximum7, etc. scanlations.


Quote :
Now, the last and final image of Las Noches here suggest that the main building we've just assessed is a relative square
Use a manga scan. It's generally exponentially better than using an anime still.

Quote :
It tore through half of the roof.
Later scans showed a much smaller hole on the roof. Are you gonna use the low-end or the high-end?

Quote :
That can give image that most characters without stable defense would likely carry away HEAVY damage if hit by a Cero Oscuras, including the fact that it without hindrance and the part of the Cero that likely blew past the building's roof it could fly around 300 to 400 meters before dissipating.
You'll find that many characters in-canon will be able to withstand it. Vizard Bankai Ichigo did, even if you count whatever reiatsu fluctation he had. The main issue with CO is actually its MASSIVE size. Surface area mechanics tells us that the bigger the blast, the less pressure/force it's gonna exert. Ichigo was... say 20 meters from Ulquiorra who was suspended in the air, and at that time, CO had already expanded to most of its size. You place a human-sized body 30 meters away from it, and they'll be able to tank it better than Vizard Ichigo did. There is a difference between firing a CO 2 inches away from someone, and someone 30 meters away. A point-blank CO could say.... kill Kenpachi of all people. A CO from 30 meters away won't.

Quote :
I estimate he started moving upwards about 40 meters above the ground, meaning he covered 500 meters as he went upwards.
Why the 500 meters again?

Quote :
In the anime, it takes about 20 seconds of moving for Ulquiorra to get from slightly above the ground all the way to the top of Las Noches.
This is dismissable evidence. Using the time frame of an anime video is never gonna give the right result simply because the time frame has nothing to do with the time it takes for Ulquiorra to get from one place to another, and didn't said video scene include the thoughts of Ichigo, which would have unnecessarily increased the length of time simply because of the seiyuu's rate of talking lul? It's better to use some kind of standard in the actual manga scan, which is usually some kind of a free-fall object. In Bleach, there usually is none- thus the time frame will never be known.


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PostSubject: Re: Scaling stuff   Sat Apr 05, 2014 5:04 pm

Quote :
Now, let us just ASSUME that the creation of speed clones is technique based.
it is indeed, although the actual speed is still speed.


Quote :
I'd say Sonido is well in the range of supersonic movement.
Sonido, Shunpo, and Hirenkyaku are MUCH, MUCH faster than that.

Quote :
Now, I am going to say that Hirenkyaku is the fastest because of this. Quincies have shown their mastery over Reishi by now. And this Mastery over Reishi is what moves them in the first place. So basically, their HSM is JUST Mastery over a specific technique of Reishi. This puts it into an extremely small corner in light of the Quincies variety of abilities.
This is a high generalization. There is no such thing as a "faster" speed technique among the three. It's entirely dependent on user and skill. Wouldn't say that Uryu is faster than Aizen, Yoruichi, Starkk, wuld yer?

Quote :
They are on equal terms because basically, for longer distances Shunpo would cover it faster because of my assumed constant velocity, while Sonido seems to be better at short distances since that one step creates an extreme acceleration that "booms" the Arrancar quickly. It loses velocity as it only accelerates ONCE however.
I can agree with this.

Quote :
EDIT: @Shikyo I dunno what an ODB'er is o.o Please explain xD
They "invented" pixel-scaling and calcing fiction feats.

Quote :
EDIT 2: In case anyone's wondering. A large part of the calculations are NOT from me. They appear on several forums. I'm just carrying them over and combining them to see what you guys may think and to perhaps create a bigger image than just one theory can provide ^^
I sincerely hope you didn't get these from the forum I'm thinking Ganz o.o.o.o.o

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PostSubject: Re: Scaling stuff   Sat Apr 05, 2014 5:40 pm

1. I agree on that ^^

2. I can't find the Manga scan anymore :C I'm probably wrong about them saying that.

3. I'm just using general images to give a vague view ^^ And in chapters 240-250 there are some pages that show the cubic/rectangular shape of Las Noches

4. Hmm... Could it be you mean the hole when Ulquiorra burst through the ceiling to release? I can't remember the page where the angle on the damage of his CO was changed. Perhaps my memory is wrong. But generally speaking, the smoking indicates some distance o.o

5. You bring up a good point there. But basically what I'm trying to say is that a CO in released state does MASSIVE damage. While resistance was there, Ichi was pretty done after it.

6. Well, my scaling of Las Noches says that from bottom to highest point the distance is around 540 meters. He fell down from the tower he was in after Masked Ichi burst him through it with a Getsuga (iirc) and then took up movement. 500 meters below the ceiling is just an estimation, as with all these things ^^

7. Oh goodness, totally dismissable evidence xD I'm just trying to make assumptions based on what I see. He could even have been using Sonido and it was just shown from Ichi's perspective or something. And yeah, it could have definitely been slowed down. But I'm just trying to create an image of how fast Captain-Classes could move without HSM. Which is pretty fast. But might be faster, might be slower. Though I would assume faster if anything.

But yeah ^^ I'm just estimating, assuming and interpreting some stuff. Some stuff VERY heavily. I lean out the window very much on some stuff xD I know that. But it's fun. And when I get to results where I'd say that it sounds accountable, I'm usually satisfied. Sonido moving at the speed of sound for example sounds pretty good to me. Same with the general area of Las Noches. 2.36 square kilometers is pretty big and really, I would generally say that that's a solid number for a construct of Las Noches' size.

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PostSubject: Re: Scaling stuff   Sat Apr 05, 2014 5:48 pm

For your comments on my HSM post:

1. Well yes, I'm just making assumptions again xD None of it is fact and I will never say it is. But what my assumptions do is give myself a better image of what I can do IC ^^

2. Now, my assumption is that they are not ^^ Much much faster is a very broad term. Though I'd like to hear your theory as to why they would surpass supersonic speed multiple times.

3. Yes it is ^^ And I wouldn't. I'm just interpreting the fact the way Hirenkyaku works. It might be potentially faster than Sonido or Shunpo, it might not be :3 I'll stick to my interpretation as soon as I've heard another good one ^^

4. Haha, I'm happy \o/ I'm entirely spitballing this entire thread xD Don't worry, I absolutely know that. I don't intend to present any of this as fact. Just my personal idea of the Bleachverse ^^

5. I dunno o.o I lurk around forums and grab calcs and speculations I can find and use them for myself. If I would have to credit everyone I take ideas for the mechanics of Mangas... that'd be one long list xD I google a lot of stuff, then check mathematical ideas of some things, biological texts I can find... I know that definitely not all of the stuff I find is right, nor is all of the stuff I find absolutely supportive, but I just do it for the fun of it and again, to give myself an image of what I can do IC'ly ^^

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PostSubject: Re: Scaling stuff   Sat Apr 05, 2014 6:05 pm

Guessing you got the scaled pics here:
OBD

You can google Las Noches's size, and you'll literally find 100 of them all over the interweb. The best estimate is 5-6 kilometers in diameter. Highest end would be like 300 kilometers.

Quote :
4. Hmm... Could it be you mean the hole when Ulquiorra burst through the ceiling to release? I can't remember the page where the angle on the damage of his CO was changed. Perhaps my memory is wrong. But generally speaking, the smoking indicates some distance o.o
http://kissmanga.com/Manga/Bleach/Bleach-351?id=7941#8
Seems to be signfiicantly smaller if you look how much closer the hole is to the outer edges of the roof. Don't be surprised though. Visual inconsistencies in artwork happens 99.99% of the time in all battle, shonen, etc. manga.


If you genuinely like calcs, here is my reference since I'm not even good at this business:
OBD List 1
OBD List 2
Bam
Shebang
Bala Boom

Just know that according to these fan calcs:
Bleach is mach 29+ (starting from SS Arc Bankai Ichigo)
Shikai Ichigo's Getsuga Tenshous are worth a few hundred tons a piece.
Cero Oscuras is 2.9 megatons
Lanza is 15 megatons
Yamamoto's Bankai is small country level. assuming that it'll turn Soul Society into ashes.
Komamura's Shikai is like 23 kilotons.



Overall, good luck to yer and hope yer dont meed any bad people on the wayz

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PostSubject: Re: Scaling stuff   Sat Apr 05, 2014 6:19 pm

Hmm... well... could also be ^^ Generally, I don't really take this all too seriously xD It's fun and helps me visualizing and imagining stuff when rping. And I know that visual inconsistencies happen :3 Don't worry. I can only repeat that I don't take all of this stuff too seriously ^^

And those calculations look interesting :3

I'll have a look. Thanks for the links o7

And that was one of the forums I stumbled over btw ^^ But it wasn't that thread... It was a thread about... speed xD I think.

Anyway... those estimations do contradict what I said. They use different sizes and estimations ^^ Also plausible and certainly accountable :3 What I want to arrive at is a general agreement so that I can create a Las Noches for the site, perhaps ^^

Thanks again, and I won't meet the wrong people xD

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PostSubject: Re: Scaling stuff   Sat Apr 05, 2014 7:01 pm

This is all very interesting, i think the only thing I would like to comment on at this time is Ichigo tanking the Cero ... Ichigo isn't to be used as an example for anything as far as strength or damage because of plot hacks. He's an exception to just about every damn rule bleach has ...

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